I was having a debate with a fellow SWAC bandsman....these were the points of view.........My stance: It is in part, but not totally, our responsibility as black collegiate (showstyle) bands/bandsmen to display proper musicianship (not to be mistaken for simply "not playing loud") for the sake of black public school bands and musicians.Opposing stance: It is solely up to the band director to get his/her students (in the black public schools) to understand and perfect proper musical habits without utilizing/needing a proper model set forth by collegiate showstyle bands.Logical opinions, please. Ill go in depth with my stance later.*not directed towards any band or style, just general statements*
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its both nothing should be soley up to the band director because we should be a band community ( that should be the purpose of sites like this)...if you see something wrong with a local high school band you should be willing to put in work.) just my two cents. don't worry about who is being a bad influence you should try to be a bigger positive influence. (not directed towards topic starter.
It is up to the band director to get the students to buy into his philosophy. He can use the local university as a model, but the students must realize that the local university practices hard and has a higher skill level that allows them to do things that the high school band may not have.
While we all favored Southern in high school, and we played some of their arrangements and did some of their drills, my band director made sure to tell us that we can't overblow to try and match Southern's sound. He told us that 3 baritones can't sound like 16, 6 trombones can't sound like 24, 4 tubas can't sound like 16. He made sure to point out that Southern doesn't overblow, they play with a full sound. When everyone is playing the arrangement correctly and together with a full, well-centered tone, then you will be able to get that nice, powerful sound that SU is known for. We were small band (64 on the field), but we packed a nice, well-balanced, clean, and powerful sound. Our symphonic band was off the chain too!Something that many directors fail to do is get the students to see that Southern also has an excellent concert band.
I think college bandsmen and alumni have a responsibility! The middle and high school students look up to us so we have to make sure we play with musicality and showcase showmanship to be good role models for the students! I go back to my high school and give back and let them know that their main focus is not trying to sound like a college and just focusing on playing their music as a band to the best of their ability, learning their scales etc! You have to be real with the students and they will respect you! It's also up to the high school band directors to make sure their band plays for what their band's instrumentation allows! It's impossible for a 30 piece band to sound full like a 200 piece band, but i guarantee a 30 piece band can sound good if done right! If their high school or middle school band directors just let them blow with nasty sounds to compensate sound for size that's on him! Giving back never hurts, it makes you better also! I know on a personal level we all have love for our universities and bands and we try to recruit for them but we need to also make sure that within our college bands we display the proper musical qualities so the students will have a effective blueprint to pattern themselves from! We got to get it in their heads that loud doesn't mean better! Then you have to really break down the difference from playing with controlled power vs just blowing loud beyond control and letting them know that it takes practice to play with controlled power and any azzhole unmusical band can blow loud! We do have a responsibility but it's not just up to the college bandsmen, their band directors have to let them know they aren't allowed to play like college bands because they aren't having that, plain and simple!
Its on the directors of these middle and high schools, if you ask me. Humans are creators of habit. And, if you're in certain habits in middle school...maintained it in HS.....all those bad habits are nothing but right by the time you get to college. That's 5, 6, 7 years of bad habits and bad philosophies that could've been prevented "before" you reach the college level.
If you have a whole generation of incoming freshman that watched SU play those 5, 6, 7 years before they got there, and weren't ever made to put a leash on trying to "blow like SU"....they're going to force the issue of what they grew up thinking when they get to that level. And, if SU's director can't get thru to them on SU's philosophy, the correct way...SU will backstroke to sounding like a big HS.
For me, it's too late for a college band director to be teach'n grown folks how to be discipline on his/her horn. Im pretty sure each one of them will tell you that that's not in their job description.
1. HS bands ARE GOING TO MIMIC US. There is no getting around it......so since that is a given, what are we giving them to mimic? Are we giving them a model that is condusive for educators to teach correct habits? Or are we giving them a model that is either going to a) put the band director in a position to teach and enforce things contray to what they see/hear their favorite band doing and therefore causing a drop in intrest from students or b) lead band directors to ignore proper musical technique to keep the student's intrest?
Notice I did say "put the band director in the position to teach". I am fully aware and acknowledge the fact that we need dedicated and competent educators in the field. Without teachers actually teaching music, nothing we do will be of any benefit.
FRAT I COULDNT HAVE PUT IT ANY BETTER....your comment is exactly what alot of college band programs are missing an dont understand you have to be an example...CUZ EVNTUALLY if colleges arent being a GOOD example then over a period time the college progams will eventually begin to suffer becuz of their lack of being an example to the high schoolers
TClef2 said:
Here's my thing......
1. HS bands ARE GOING TO MIMIC US. There is no getting around it......so since that is a given, what are we giving them to mimic? Are we giving them a model that is condusive for educators to teach correct habits? Or are we giving them a model that is either going to a) put the band director in a position to teach and enforce things contray to what they see/hear their favorite band doing and therefore causing a drop in intrest from students or b) lead band directors to ignore proper musical technique to keep the student's intrest?
Notice I did say "put the band director in the position to teach". I am fully aware and acknowledge the fact that we need dedicated and competent educators in the field. Without teachers actually teaching music, nothing we do will be of any benefit.
Is it our responsibility?
I was having a debate with a fellow SWAC bandsman....these were the points of view.........
My stance: It is in part, but not totally, our responsi…
I think its about 50/50. We all know kids will be kids, and so they want to emulate what they see, but as an educator you have the final word on how that band sounds. I dont think its anything wrong using a collegiate band as a template to shape your band as long as you have them understand that they arent that band. For example, in high school our band emulated PVU and we also played whatever we liked from just about every hbcu that was popular at the time, PVU, TXSU,SU, NCAT etc. but our band directors always made it clear that at the end of the day we werent these schools and we werent going to get the same sound, because we didnt have the instrumentation and because most importantly we didnt have collegiate musicians so even though we loved SU arrangements like Getaway and Another star we understood we could never play sound like SU because we just werent on that level. I think all in all its the collegiate bands responsibility to set the example of excellence and its the high school band directors responsibility to make his band understand that while its ok to strive for that sound they have to play in the confines of what is reasonable for that particular program which is something Mr Knighten and Jackson has been telling us for years.
Collegiate programs have been suffering already. The skill (not talent) level of incoming freshmen are on a constant decline. I said skill and not talent because talent is natual ability and a skill is a craft that has been perfected through repetition. We need students to practice good habits and and become more musically literate and I believe that what we display will be a direct reflection in the public schools.
Each band has its own following from a fan perspective and a perfomance/musical perspective. No matter what each band does, its following will believe that its correct or has some validity in making their performance good. Lets be honest......if EVERY band in the SWAC went the entire 09 season battling scales and marches (and i mean really battling as tough as we battle now) in 5th quarters, dont you realize that the black public school kids will want to play scales and marches? Ive been to numerous high schools in several different cites......all these kids want to do is look and sound exactly like their favorite band.
Like i said earlier, we need ppl who are willing to teach tho.
Kourtney Smith said:
CUZ EVNTUALLY if colleges arent being a GOOD example then over a period time the college progams will eventually begin to suffer
Is it our responsibility?
I was having a debate with a fellow SWAC bandsman....these were the points of view.........
My stance: It is in part, but not totally, our responsi…
if we are 2 lead by example, then we 1st must acknowledge that we are the cream of the crop. you should come correct if u want 2 march for us. that will make them kids practice harder 2 become apart of their favorite band. it also includes bein the best bandsmen you can be, sacraficing the bottle or the controller till you got your music down.
then, the mid/high school director should focus more on fundamentals 2 get them ready for college while acknowledging the limitations of their current program.
the college director needs 2 be more concerned with the music coming out of the horns b4 implementing styles and traditions. there are some things in college that you can fix yourself like the occasional key sig mess up, but constant "key violations" shouldnt go unnoticed.
i agree with whats being said but i just believe...that the BLACK COLLEGIATE BANDS need to take more responsibilty in recognizing we are the example...
.for instance I KNOW FOR A FACT THAT kids want to be rappers an basketball players simply becuz of there idols in those professions..i.e LEBRON JAMES, KOBE BRYANT, LIL BOOSIE, LIL WAYNE, etc...those icons are aware that they have significant influence over there fans an its up to them to decide what they want there fans to model..IMO Boosie is not a good example for our kids to listen to..BUT YET AN STILL..they learn the words to all of his degrading songs know all about his life an watch him on youtube "SMOKING WEED INFRONT OF HIS DAUGHTER" an the kids think its acceptable...regardless of how much the parents tell there kids thats wrong etc....the child is gonna do it just cuz THATS WHAT THEY KNOW AN SEE FROM THERE EXAMPLE
we often times wonder why do most white kids at ALL REGION- ALL STATE TRYOUTS etc excel an place over our BLACK youth......LOOK AT WHO THEY ARE TRYIN TO MIMIC....the "CAVALIERS...BLUE DEVILS...AN other DCI BANDS...who we all agree SOUND TREMENDOUSLY GOOD...an have a powerful sound becuz they are doin it correctly
yea the director has a responsibility but i think we all would agree that IF the exmples of what our kids are listening to arent supporting what the director is teaching..YOUR KILLIN HIS/HER JOB!!!!
Replies
While we all favored Southern in high school, and we played some of their arrangements and did some of their drills, my band director made sure to tell us that we can't overblow to try and match Southern's sound. He told us that 3 baritones can't sound like 16, 6 trombones can't sound like 24, 4 tubas can't sound like 16. He made sure to point out that Southern doesn't overblow, they play with a full sound. When everyone is playing the arrangement correctly and together with a full, well-centered tone, then you will be able to get that nice, powerful sound that SU is known for. We were small band (64 on the field), but we packed a nice, well-balanced, clean, and powerful sound. Our symphonic band was off the chain too!Something that many directors fail to do is get the students to see that Southern also has an excellent concert band.
If you have a whole generation of incoming freshman that watched SU play those 5, 6, 7 years before they got there, and weren't ever made to put a leash on trying to "blow like SU"....they're going to force the issue of what they grew up thinking when they get to that level. And, if SU's director can't get thru to them on SU's philosophy, the correct way...SU will backstroke to sounding like a big HS.
For me, it's too late for a college band director to be teach'n grown folks how to be discipline on his/her horn. Im pretty sure each one of them will tell you that that's not in their job description.
1. HS bands ARE GOING TO MIMIC US. There is no getting around it......so since that is a given, what are we giving them to mimic? Are we giving them a model that is condusive for educators to teach correct habits? Or are we giving them a model that is either going to a) put the band director in a position to teach and enforce things contray to what they see/hear their favorite band doing and therefore causing a drop in intrest from students or b) lead band directors to ignore proper musical technique to keep the student's intrest?
Notice I did say "put the band director in the position to teach". I am fully aware and acknowledge the fact that we need dedicated and competent educators in the field. Without teachers actually teaching music, nothing we do will be of any benefit.
TClef2 said:
Each band has its own following from a fan perspective and a perfomance/musical perspective. No matter what each band does, its following will believe that its correct or has some validity in making their performance good. Lets be honest......if EVERY band in the SWAC went the entire 09 season battling scales and marches (and i mean really battling as tough as we battle now) in 5th quarters, dont you realize that the black public school kids will want to play scales and marches? Ive been to numerous high schools in several different cites......all these kids want to do is look and sound exactly like their favorite band.
Like i said earlier, we need ppl who are willing to teach tho.
Kourtney Smith said:
then, the mid/high school director should focus more on fundamentals 2 get them ready for college while acknowledging the limitations of their current program.
the college director needs 2 be more concerned with the music coming out of the horns b4 implementing styles and traditions. there are some things in college that you can fix yourself like the occasional key sig mess up, but constant "key violations" shouldnt go unnoticed.
.for instance I KNOW FOR A FACT THAT kids want to be rappers an basketball players simply becuz of there idols in those professions..i.e LEBRON JAMES, KOBE BRYANT, LIL BOOSIE, LIL WAYNE, etc...those icons are aware that they have significant influence over there fans an its up to them to decide what they want there fans to model..IMO Boosie is not a good example for our kids to listen to..BUT YET AN STILL..they learn the words to all of his degrading songs know all about his life an watch him on youtube "SMOKING WEED INFRONT OF HIS DAUGHTER" an the kids think its acceptable...regardless of how much the parents tell there kids thats wrong etc....the child is gonna do it just cuz THATS WHAT THEY KNOW AN SEE FROM THERE EXAMPLE
we often times wonder why do most white kids at ALL REGION- ALL STATE TRYOUTS etc excel an place over our BLACK youth......LOOK AT WHO THEY ARE TRYIN TO MIMIC....the "CAVALIERS...BLUE DEVILS...AN other DCI BANDS...who we all agree SOUND TREMENDOUSLY GOOD...an have a powerful sound becuz they are doin it correctly
yea the director has a responsibility but i think we all would agree that IF the exmples of what our kids are listening to arent supporting what the director is teaching..YOUR KILLIN HIS/HER JOB!!!!
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